EP 5: Redefining Relationship OCD

(0:00 – 0:06)
And so that shift where you’re like, Oh, that feels weird. That’s changed. That’s growth.

(0:06 – 0:34)
And I think that if I can send one message out, it’s that, that discomfort means you’re growing and it means you’re moving in the right direction, especially if you are the one advocating for that to happen. This is the Viva View, the podcast that redefines mental health. I’m your host, Dr. Julie Lopez, and every month we will be de-stigmatizing mental health with the help of an inspiring guest.

(0:34 – 0:52)
Our goal is to empower you in your mental wellbeing. So let’s begin. I am so happy to be welcoming Sabrina Hansen of the Relational Mastery Institute to the Viva View today.

(0:52 – 1:16)
And where we are going to be talking about a term that has been called relationship OCD or obsessive compulsive disorder. And as always, we’re going to look to redefine that because neither Sabrina nor myself really look at any terms that are called disorders. Cause we don’t even look at people that way.

(1:16 – 1:24)
And so without further ado, I’m going to welcome you in Sabrina. Thank you so much, Julie. I feel so honored to be here.

(1:24 – 1:54)
And when you reached out to have me on, I just couldn’t have been happier and really excited for this discussion and really hope that it helps people feel more empowered and like lessens the stigma and helps, again, people live their very best lives and not feel labeled. Yes, I love that. You’re just like the perfect guest for a million different reasons, but I know you and I are really aligned on trying to step away from labels.

(1:55 – 2:26)
So what is this label? OCD affects a lot of people in our world, obsessive compulsive disorder. Again, I am fully against the disorder label because in my 30 plus years of experience working with people on their mental wellbeing, there isn’t a person that I’ve met that is broken. Our nervous systems, our brain and our spinal cord that transmits so much data and information in our bodies is incredible.

(2:26 – 3:03)
We are each like the most incredibly sophisticated supercomputer. And when I really sit with someone and get to know them, in fact, there’s a reason that their cells might be looping or they might show up and present with this type of presentation. And when we look at something that’s been categorized in this very popular, but I’m fully against the diagnostic statistical manual that a lot of mental health, not a lot, all mental health practitioners use really puts labels and puts people’s in in boxes.

(3:03 – 3:33)
And they would say that someone with OCD is having recurring and repetitive thoughts to the point of really interfering with their day-to-day life. And it can be accompanied with actions that are also repetitive. I think in, out in the regular world, people mostly think of OCD like, Oh, I’m going to clean the doorknob 20 times, or I’m going to put my shoes in order by color gradation, or I’m going to get all into this behavior.

(3:34 – 4:12)
That’s going to take me off my game. But in fact, when we talk about relationship OCD, a lot of times it’s really just debilitating anxiety or fear about not being loved, about not being safe, about not being really desirable, the obsessive piece can be about any different part of an intimate relationship. So I’m wondering with the awesome program that you have launched fairly recently through the relational mastery Institute, what’s your take on all of that? Well, that’s a lot.

(4:12 – 4:52)
And I know that, you know, especially in a short podcast, but, um, I hope to answer your question with another question, because again, removing ourselves from the label, any time that anyone comes in front of me, right. Whether it’s a client through the relational mastery Institute where we’re providing therapeutic interventions, not necessarily therapy or in my private practice work as a social worker, right. Where I am serving and supporting clients from a definitely therapy based, um, view, I think about why they’re there, right.

(4:52 – 5:28)
And what is therapy or what are they trying to achieve? And so my question for you is what do you think therapy is trying to achieve? Well, let me tell you in a broad sense. And then let me tell you specifically for relationship OCD, since we’re going to talk about that today. To me, simple relationship is about change, which is why we’re trained so much in the idea of getting client centered, right? I may have a client come in and think, Ooh, you should change this.

(5:28 – 5:41)
And you should change that irrelevant. Clients come in and they ideally present, or we help them pull out. What is it that you want to change? What isn’t working for you? Right.

(5:41 – 5:59)
And that’s very subjective. So that’s what I think in a very, very basic way it’s about change. And ultimately that canvas that people are painting of their lives is just that they get to use their artist’s brush and make it what they want it to be.

(5:59 – 6:09)
So for some people, it might be more peace for others. It might be a better relationship for someone else. It might be more energy.

(6:09 – 6:27)
It might be repairing a relationship in some way, but I think on a simple level to answer that question, I would say it’s about change, client centered change. Yeah. And so many of my clients and the people that I work with, I feel like it goes into two polar categories.

(6:27 – 7:05)
Again, at least anecdotally for me, it could be very different for others, but it’s either the goal is relief from suffering, some sort of suffering, or to be happier and to have more contentment and meaning in their life. And for me, I find that meaning really comes through being in a safe and nurturing relationship. And, you know, sometimes those, some of us in life really have not had the opportunity necessarily to be in safe relationship with others and then therefore know what it means and looks like.

(7:05 – 7:42)
And so that’s sort of how we’re redefining it, the Relational Mastery Institute. We’re not necessarily looking at it through the lens of romantic relationships or any specific type, but just relationships in general to others, as well as to ourselves. And really helping to craft a roadmap through science and evidence-based practices, as well as cultivating compassion and diving deeper into things like purpose and love and social connection and nutrition and movement and rest, and these pillars that are so important for our wellbeing.

(7:42 – 7:56)
When we look at a person as a whole person, right. And not just, and I think I can’t really stress that enough is that. Our goal, maybe even two is to be whole and to be whole requires.

(7:57 – 8:20)
It’s not just like a one, unfortunately, I wish there was like a life hack that was like, all you need to do is this. If I had a magic wand, I really would wave it and say like, all you need is just this one thing. But, at least for me in my own life and my own journey and what I’m seeing with my clients as well, is that it does take, it’s like a systems approach to things, right.

(8:20 – 8:26)
We’re not living in silos. And so how do we go about doing that? Yes. I love that.

(8:26 – 8:39)
There’s so many things I want to say. And the idea of a systems approach kind of marries what I was saying about our complex nervous system. There’s many different angles to make change.

(8:40 – 8:54)
And so you talked about love. I do know that you have an upcoming workshop on love, a masterclass, a four hour virtual masterclass, which sounds like it’s going to be amazing. And there is that song, all you need is love.

(8:54 – 9:16)
But if you think about OCD being fear-based, right? We could even call someone who’s showing up with obsessive compulsive disorder. I don’t like it. I’m putting air quotes around it, but a struggle with rumination and repeating thoughts and behaviors to feel safe in relationship, you could just say, Hey, they’re showing up.

(9:16 – 9:46)
And their mapping is showing us that maybe some challenging things have happened in their life with regards to relationships. And we all know, um, my last month’s guest was an adoption expert and adoptee who is a big podcaster. And we were talking about how for adopted people, if their first understanding of a relationship is like a severing of a primary caregiver on the planet, it really does a number to your nervous system.

(9:46 – 10:18)
Right. And we’re built to survive and adapt. So if someone’s struggling with ROCD or it’s been labeled that way, we could probably call it something like, you know, unsafe mapping demonstration or something like that, because all they’re saying is, gosh, some stuff in your life, whether in your life that you remember or passed down generally generationally, a grandparent to a parent kind of teaching in general that relationships aren’t safe.

(10:18 – 10:34)
It’s really just says my nervous system doesn’t feel safe. And so I’m going to do all this checking all this, you know, um, repetitive stuff to make sure that I am safe. And you know what, that doesn’t mean I have a disorder and that doesn’t mean that I’m broken.

(10:34 – 10:49)
That means that my system’s on high alert, probably for some reason. And let’s try to rework that code. And my guess is that’s pretty related to what you do in your work.

(10:51 – 11:24)
Yes. Well, and again, there’s so much there, so I guess I’ll kind of break it down because my brain is like literally going in a million different directions. One thing I like to share with my clients related to change is this sort of visual representation of what change feels like, because I think that there is this maybe like unrealistic perspective that change is like fun and like easy, and just because somebody wants to change means it should feel good and it should come very naturally.

(11:25 – 11:43)
Um, and so for those people who maybe practice yoga, maybe you’ve heard, you know, your instructor facilitator, um, say this at times, but Julie, if I have you clasp your hands together, just put your hands together like the usual way that you do. Okay. So how does that feel? That’s good.

(11:43 – 11:48)
Okay. Okay. So then I’m going to have you shift your fingers one digit over.

(11:51 – 11:54)
And how does that feel? Weird. Weird. Okay.

(11:55 – 12:04)
So, and now I’m going to have you shift your hands back weird. Right. And so that shift where you’re like, Oh, that feels weird.

(12:04 – 12:20)
That’s changed. That’s growth. And I think that if I can send one message out, it’s that, that discomfort means you’re growing and it means you’re moving in the right direction, especially if you are the one advocating for that to happen.

(12:20 – 12:34)
Right. You’re going to therapy, you’re actively participating in things that optimize your wellbeing. We have to get out of the relational master Institute, your cohort based change program.

(12:34 – 12:46)
Yes. And so again, like, I just hope to provide people with a little bit of compassion and empathy and just say, yeah, it’s going to feel weird. It’s going to feel awkward.

(12:46 – 13:00)
It’s going to feel uncomfortable, but eventually the more that you hold your hands in this way, metaphorically, like I said, the more that that’s going to be your new, like air quotes, normal. Right. And so, but.

(13:00 – 13:09)
You know, again, you can go and I see, you hear this all the time. It’s been my own experience as well. You go to therapy again, you could view and join a cohort.

(13:09 – 13:17)
You do something for your own wellbeing and you’re like in that growth zone. And you’re like, yes, I can stay here. Like, this is going to feel okay for me.

(13:17 – 13:23)
Then you wake up the next morning. And then when I say, okay, hold your hands together. You go back to the way before.

(13:23 – 13:58)
And I think that there is a huge part, especially at the beginning, when we’re learning any new habit that we just have to keep on doing it and keep on recognizing that the more that we continue to do things it’s right. Like neurons that fire together, wire together. So the more that we think in a certain way and feel that, and I know you’re a very somatic based, um, provider and practitioner, I oftentimes really encourage my clients not only to think about the change, right? Like maybe.

(13:58 – 14:32)
Whether that’s like, I don’t want to feel these ruminating thoughts anymore, or I don’t want to have these, you know, I say, well, how do you actually want to feel and feel that, and that’s also part of just rewiring your nervous system. Because I guess part two to answer your question related to habits. Um, I am a total geek and my, one of the other founders, Dr. Rob, Jen, who, you know, is, uh, you just wonderful human being.

(14:33 – 14:45)
First of all, yes. And is such a thought leader on attachment and co-regulation. And, um, one of the things that he talks about is, you know, really.

(14:46 – 15:19)
A lot of these habits and these behaviors that we’re experiencing actually were a protective factor for us, right? Acknowledge and give ourselves some grace to say at one point in my life, this was actually helping me and protecting me. And now I have this awareness that maybe this is no longer serving me. And I think if we look at that in a friendlier, more compassionate way and yes, yes, yes, yes.

(15:21 – 15:50)
Helpful, but kind of added to that when I look at, okay, like how can we optimize change? Like I am very much a, one of those people from the mental health perspective. And if I go, you know, say from a physical health way or just, um, like sports, there was no one that ran, you know, under a four minute mile. And then all of a sudden someone was like, I think it’s possible.

(15:50 – 15:57)
And I’m going to do it. And then they did it and they proved that it could work. And then so many more people did it.

(15:57 – 16:20)
So I think for me, I, I love the challenge of personal development. I love the challenge of really pushing myself to understand how the brain works and how the body works and how the mind and the heart are connected. And in what facets can I be of better service to those people around me so that I can grow, because it’s like, I know that there, I don’t even know close to everything.

(16:20 – 16:37)
In fact, I know very little it’s my clients really that teach me so much. And then I just get curious about those things. But one of the things that I’ve learned recently, um, and started digging into is the difference between the conscious and the subconscious mind.

(16:38 – 16:47)
So I love that. Sabrina, you know, I love that. And so riches are in that unconscious, right? They’re funny.

(16:47 – 17:14)
And you say your inner Sage, right? And so I really value looking at things from a more, we all have by the way, inner Sage, we all have them. Right. And I just, it warms my heart to look at things from a more positive and optimistic way, whatever it is that that particular client or individual is wanting to work on as I go, okay, well, you have the wisdom within you.

(17:14 – 17:34)
I just help to be, um, a facilitator or a mentor of that. Right. And when I think about what it means to be a mentor and the mentors and the people that I’ve been privileged to have in my life, it’s someone who sees maybe more talent and ability within you than you see within yourself.

(17:34 – 17:44)
It really helps to bring that out of you. And that is my mission, like in the world. And again, going back, we all have that.

(17:45 – 18:08)
And it does take just tapping into that subconscious mind and that place where all those habits and feelings and emotions and memories and our imagination are stored. Um, that can sometimes play tricks on us a little bit, right? It’s like the stuff that’s going on behind the scenes and we have this free will in our conscious mind. Right.

(18:08 – 18:23)
But there’s stuff, there’s sort of this program and this system that’s operating in the background that really was constructed to keep us safe. But the fascinating part is it’s there to keep us safe from dangers, both real and perceived. That’s right.

(18:24 – 18:38)
Yes. If you, you, everyone knows someone who’s been in war is on full alert because it’s life or death all the time. Right? So sounds, sights, smells, all those things can trigger a protective response.

(18:38 – 19:04)
If that person who’s not in war is walking around the normal everyday life, hears a loud noise and knocks five people to the ground, they’re going to say they’re crazy. But in war, they would have been a hero because that same automatic safety response would have saved lives. So couldn’t we call someone with what the DSM is calling relationship OCD, R-O-C-D.

(19:05 – 19:21)
Couldn’t we call someone, and I thought of just this, just while you were talking, like a soul that’s seeking safety, they’re just repetitively checking to make sure they’re safe. You better believe you would do that. If you knew that there were explosives outside your house, you’d be double checking, double checking.

(19:21 – 19:41)
Am I in the center part? Am I in the best spot? If the house falls down, is the roof gonna, you know, you would be on hyperdrive doing that. So of course, if that coding is in your body, that’s what you’re going to be doing. And I think the important thing here, which is what you’re talking about, is that you can change the code.

(19:42 – 20:00)
You can take your clasp hands and move it to something a little bit uncomfortable because you have to fight against whatever’s in there in the deep unconscious that says you’re not safe relationally. And trust me, and I’d love your input on this. There are lots of things in the world that make us feel unsafe relationally.

(20:00 – 20:13)
You know, my conversation last month was about adopted people who at very early ages are severed from their family. And when they’re infants, it’s like encoded as like ultimate danger or death. There’s other things.

(20:13 – 20:34)
You can be in a car accident. You can actually have, this is such a fascinating topic, you know, trauma from ancestors a few generations back that you’ve never even heard about, but it’s still impacting the cells of your body because we are programmed to survive because we’re awesome. And yeah, so love your take on that too, because that’s the thing.

(20:34 – 20:54)
We just want to redefine this. So people aren’t like suicidal or like, well, I should just throw the towel in because my life is destined to be this way, right? And OCD, when someone’s presenting with these thoughts that are going fast at a fast clip, it’s really fricking hard. Life is really hard.

(20:54 – 21:14)
It can be really debilitating and super hard to do even the most basic things. It doesn’t have to be that way. And in my opinion, it starts with changing some of these labels that basically by definition say you’re doomed and you’re not moving anywhere or changing anywhere, there’s no help for you, right? Right.

(21:14 – 21:32)
And it, and it takes time. So I think that like you, I’m so enthusiastic and I’m so excited about the fact that, you know, neuroplasticity science shows us that we’re not stagnant, right. And that there is hope and science is proving it.

(21:32 – 21:52)
And that wasn’t necessarily a message that was being put out there a few decades back. We thought we were fixed. We thought, Oh, once you turn a certain age, your brain is just, you know, set in stone and we’re finding that that’s really not the case and it, it changes through growth and learning.

(21:52 – 22:18)
And when we’re put in sort of these uncomfortable situations, but then we are also given opportunities and tools to be more resilient. And so, um, related to that, I feel like first, um, it’s, it’s really a client’s willingness to change number one, because I think that there is. And the belief that they’re deserving of it.

(22:18 – 22:36)
And so a lot of the times, um, I think there is this, like, I don’t know if it’s a joke or what it’s like, how many, you know, social psychiatrists or psychologists does it take to change the light bulb? Right. And it’s like, I thought it when you said that. So the light bulb has to want to change.

(22:36 – 22:53)
But I think in addition to that, what I’ve also found, and it’s helped me look at things again, cause I have a tendency to be really like sunny all the time. And my clients have helped me to recognize that the challenge, right. In change.

(22:53 – 23:21)
And maybe for some people it comes more naturally, but for others, as much as they want it. Maybe they don’t believe that they’re worthy of like really living a life of freedom, a life of happiness and contentment that somehow, for some reason, they’re deserving of this guilt or this shame or this suffering. And so for me and a lot of the work that I do is it’s really starting from there.

(23:21 – 24:11)
So it seems like people are coming in to work on one issue, the relationship, but really it’s the relationship with themselves and, and crafting, um, ways to overcome that slowly, right? It’s not that tomorrow we are going to see this totally different person. And again, from an analogy perspective, it’s like, if we decide that we want to make a lifestyle change, like, you know, maybe building more strength physically, we go to the gym. Well, everybody knows that even if you go to the gym once for an hour, you’re not going to come home and all of a sudden, just like this massive bodybuilder.

(24:11 – 24:21)
Right. It’s compounding effort. And so also sort of the reframe in all of this is it takes time.

(24:22 – 24:48)
So yes, change is possible a hundred percent and it takes time. And again, because of the hand clasp, so continue to do it. And then eventually you just have this moment where it could be, you know, 10 sessions in, it could be, you know, however many it doesn’t, there’s really no sort of gestational period for any particular individual, but there’s just a moment of like, Oh my goodness.

(24:48 – 25:23)
Like those things aren’t bothering me so much anymore. Um, and for me, it has taken sort of a combination of both top down and bottom up approaches, um, to the work, meaning, you know, the intellectual kind of thought based insights that may come from more of a communication kind of dialogue based approach or like journaling or those things type of things. But then there’s this other bottom up approach, which is really profound.

(25:23 – 25:42)
And I’m so glad that it has become more mainstream than it than before. But I still think that people really need to know about it. And if they’re not incorporating it into their lives, um, just how amazing it can be for change, but things like mindfulness, things like body-based practices.

(25:42 – 26:08)
Right. Can I interrupt just for a second? Just because bottom up approach means listening to the body first as a way of gaining information and as a vehicle for change, as opposed to top down, which is intellectual understanding, and then trying to gain insights from that. And in my work where I specialize in non-talk based change opportunities, it’s all bottom up.

(26:08 – 26:30)
Yes. Right. And I’m glad that you added that little extra definition because it is like in those moments where we’re connecting with our body and understanding how we’re feeling, there’s just so many insights, but oftentimes maybe that’s not necessarily something that is, um, a tool or resource that’s used.

(26:30 – 26:43)
And so we really enjoy doing that through experientials in the work that we do. And then the more you start feeling the possibility, right. Your body then says, Oh, like I’m, I’m safe.

(26:43 – 26:54)
And I know and recognize what safety feels like. And I’ve actually been able to be in a relationship that is safe. And I’ve been able to be accepting and receiving of love.

(26:54 – 27:14)
And I’ve also been able to give love and I can tell you where in my body, I feel that maybe it’s in my heart, maybe, and maybe you can use words to describe that. And so, but again, it is a very, um, it’s a, it’s a process. It’s not just something that you kind of gain overnight.

(27:14 – 27:42)
And so, um, yeah, in terms of the relational OCD label, the idea being that that is really the anecdote for the experience, because what I envisioned when you were talking about. Being able to give and receive love really receive, right. Not just have it happen and intellectually process it.

(27:42 – 27:51)
Cause I think that’s where people get stuck. Like, Oh yeah, I know I’m safe. I know that intellectually, but there’s stuff in my body that has me doing these ruminating things over and over.

(27:51 – 28:07)
Well, somewhere in your body, it’s not getting that message. So picturing like the hand class move, actually changing some of that code seems to be really key. And I love what you guys are doing at the relational mastery Institute to help move that along.

(28:07 – 28:17)
And there is power in relationships and your cohort based learning. And I love it. So I know it seems crazy, but our time is up, Sabrina.

(28:17 – 29:04)
I could talk to you for days and days and days, and you are such a bright light and, and getting to know you over these years, as I have, I love how you approach all of your work as a servant, as a humble person, who’s just encouraging and loving and supportive, and I knew you were going to be a great guest for what we’re trying to do here at the Viva View. In really changing and redefining the way we look at mental health and mental wellbeing. So I just want to thank you for being here and to thank our audience for tuning in, we hope you enjoyed our deep dive into the role of what has been called relational OCD, but in my opinion, and I hope Sabrina, I believe Sabrina would agree with me should be called.

(29:05 – 29:50)
A soul who’s seeking safety, right? A soul who’s seeking safety, which we all are and be sure to check out the relational mastery Institute and all the great work Sabrina is involved in to move people along in their journey of personal mastery, be sure to join us next month when we will be talking more about mental health terms that need to be redefined. Please, as always visit www.vivapartnership.com to access our free and low cost resources that will empower you on your healing journey. And if you enjoyed this episode and you’d like to help us redefine mental health, I’d like to invite you to share, subscribe, and consider leaving a rating and review.

(29:50 – 29:59)
Let’s redefine mental health together and end the stigma surrounding mental health. Thank you, Julie. That was so great to have you Sabrina