About the Episode
When codependency and hyperfixation hijack your mind, silence keeps the cycle alive.
In this deeply honest conversation, Dr. Julie Lopez sits down with author, filmmaker, and advocate Zara Phillips to explore how codependency and hyperfixation act as survival mechanisms and how they can spiral into addictive patterns.
They unpack why we overthink, people‑please, or fixate compulsively when safety feels shaky, and offer powerful tools to overcome these challenges.
Zara brings powerful insights from her recovery journey and adoption advocacy, making this episode a fascinating exploration of what it means to heal, belong, and reclaim your authentic self.
Episode Guest
Zara Phillips is an adoptee advocate, author of ‘Somebody’s Daughter’, a play, then a movie on Amazon Prime. She is a speaker on the Lifelong Impact of adoption. Talks with Gabor Mate, The OLLIE Foundation, Paul Sunderland, and Ron Nydam.
Watch the episode:
Episode Transcript
What Is Hyperfixation and Why Your Brain Gets Stuck in Loops?
Julie: Hi everyone, on this week’s episode, we will be diving into hyperfixation and how it has really impacted the community that my guests and I are a big part of, which is people who have been relinquished. Stay until the end when Zara will be sharing the two key components that she sees as pivotal for really stepping out of this zone of hyperfixation/ addiction/ compulsive behavior and really living into the potential that all of us are destined and have a right to enjoy.
Today I’d like to welcome Zara Phillips, who is a world-renowned adoptee advocate, author, and filmmaker.
She has spent decades working to really empower the community of adoptees, and I am a personal fan.
Before we jump in, don’t forget to check out our website www.vivapartnership.com for free and low-cost resources that can change your life.
Thank you so much for joining us, Zara.
Zara Phillips: Well, thank you. It’s really great to see you, and I’m looking forward to our conversation.
Julie: So am I.
Julie: We both had a little reaction to this term, hyperfixation, right? It’s not something for me as a trauma and addictions expert and, of course, a person who is adopted. It’s not something that I’ve really come across in my clinical work very often.
However, a lot of people are really relating to it in today’s age, specifically around how a passion can then become an obsession and really end up getting disruptive in our lives.
The Science of Safety: Why We Obsess When We Feel Out of Control
Zara Phillips: Yeah, I mean, I’ve never heard the word before, you know, and I was, you know, as we were talking before, I’m like, what is, what does that mean?
Because I always think of addiction as being something that gets in the way of people’s lives.
But I, and then I was thinking too, that, like, it’s, it’s almost like overthinking. Maybe, maybe that term is about overthinking, and why do people overthink or obsess? And I think it’s, it’s almost because you feel out of control, and that somehow makes you feel you’re in control and almost gives you a feeling of safety somehow.
How Adoption Trauma Rewires Your Nervous System From Day One
Julie: And isn’t that safety feeling so important? Right? It drives us all.
It’s a fundamental state that as human beings, we want to feel safe in this world. It’s part of adapting. It’s part of surviving.
And as an adoptee advocate and as an adopted person yourself, I’m sure you see that all the time where us adopted people go to great lengths to feel safe, to feel like we’re going to be okay.
Zara Phillips: Yeah. And I think, you know, it’s also just people with trauma wanting to know, well, what’s going to happen, you know, and obsessing about what if I do this, or I do this, and I’ve, you know, just, again, about safety, because we come from, you know, the early beginnings of our life were, where’s our mother, what’s happening to us.
And I think that affects your whole life. I mean, there’s a lifelong impact to that.
Julie: Yes
Zara Phillips: We absolutely have to have coping mechanisms.
As you know, anybody does that has trauma, but for us, it starts right from the beginning.
Julie: Yes. Yes.
Why People-Pleasing Becomes an Adoptee’s Drug of Choice
Julie: And I think one of the struggles that, in general, our culture perpetuates is the idea that switching from one family to the next doesn’t absolutely shatter your nervous system.
And of course, when you talk about early relinquishment, and of course, people get relinquished at all ages for lots of reasons, and the reasons always have some type of distress to them, either financial reasons, emotional reasons, you know, relational reasons that are less than ideal, where a child can’t really be safe in the environment where they were, or is politically, or financially, we could get in, we could really go off track here, you know, around what goes into how relinquishment happens.
But nonetheless, the person, the baby, the child, the person removed from their biological environment is the one who really bears the scars of that.
And I think what I see is that the worst tragedy is when the adopted person themselves, the person who’s been through that experience, is told by everyone else that they’re lucky, that they should be grateful.
And so when they’re having kind of what’s a normal reaction, the symptoms, and then maybe the hyperfixation, we’ll call it, which might be an overthinking, but it could be really a focus on work that gets in the way of life, or a focus on drugs that gets in the way of life, or a focus on performance that gets in the way of life.
And I think you and I spoke a little bit about how many adopted people, really, their drug of choice is pleasing other people.
They will say yes to stuff, they will bend a million different ways. Almost, you could say obsessively, because they’re annihilating themselves, their boundaries, their limits, their needs, their desires in the service of seeking safety, you could say.
The Abandonment Trap: How We Abandon Ourselves to Avoid Rejection
Zara Phillips: And also, I think that that ties into codependency as well.
Because I didn’t realize, you know, years ago, I think I was talking to a therapist, and I didn’t really understand how codependent we can become from these kinds of traumas. But again, it’s to do with safety; it’s to do with the people pleasing.
And I think what really took me a long time to realize is when somebody… You know, like years ago, I was talking about my birth mother, well, you know, she abandoned me, she abandoned me.
That’s how we feel. That’s not actually the story. But that’s how we feel.
And, you know, I can never forgive her for that, because she abandoned me. And somebody said to me, “Well, where in your life have you ever abandoned yourself?” And I was like, Oh, I do it all the time, all the time. So that has been a really good tool for me to understand the go, hold on a minute.
I felt abandoned. That wasn’t actually the story. It’s way more complicated.
That’s just was not allowed to keep me. But then I ended up abandoning myself. And I do see that with adoptees.
And we do that in so many ways, you know, when you just can’t be your authentic self, because you have to please other people. My parents will be upset. My adoptive parents wouldn’t want me talking about this, or my birth mother would feel hurt, you know, all those things. And I think that’s why we have more of that obsessive mind.
Addiction and the Search for Safety
Julie: Yes, that’s right. Well, I studied this in my dissertation long ago. And in fact, that propensity, the relationship between trauma and addictions, that propensity to get into that obsessive, kind of compulsive behavior, chemical addiction, behavioral addiction, thinking is way, way higher for someone who has experienced trauma, because it’s a natural way of coping.
It’s a natural way our bodies move towards feeling safe. And yes, I think, you know, one of the struggles, especially around something like codependency, or people pleasing is if you don’t even identify it as something that was hard, or it’s not in your conscious memory, or you haven’t been exposed to some kind of reading or information, scientific information about how your body works, you might be one of the numbers, you might be one of the casualties, you know.
You and I both know adoptees are overrepresented in suicide statistics, in drug treatment statistics, in residential treatment statistics. And that’s a tragedy that we’re both really passionate about changing.
Zara Phillips: Absolutely.
Julie: I’d love to hear more about what you’re doing this week. It’s super exciting about changing the story and helping to empower other people like you and I.
From Disruption to Advocacy: Finding Your True Voice
Zara Phillips: Well, you know, I live, as you know, between America and England.
So I was adopted in England. So I know like all the laws here compared to, you know, the states in America, where, you know, records are sealed, and in England, records are open.
But regardless of that, there are so many commonalities between all adoptees, because we were all relinquished, no matter what country we’re from, we all share the same, and you know, there are the same statistics of suicide with adoptees in this country as there are in America.
And, you know, wherever you go.
So over here in England, I mean, in a way, you can say there’s been more progression than in America, because America still, you know, we’re struggling to get them to open basic records and give information.
We’re asking for a government apology for what they call the forced adoption era. So for years, I would think, well, I wasn’t really from the forced adoption era, because I believe the narrative, which was, your mother couldn’t take care of you. She was young; that was the story that I had.
So then I would think, you know, I grew up thinking, well, obviously, she was not capable of being a mother. But actually, that wasn’t true. The truth is, she didn’t have the support to be a mother; there was nothing physically unfit about this woman.
There are obviously some mothers who are mentally ill and drug addicted, who can’t necessarily take care of their babies. But the high percentage from that time period, even in America, too, our mothers were young, and we were illegitimate. That is it.
And, you know, we grow up with this whole story of must be something wrong with your mother, you know, you had to be given to another family, and you can’t tell anybody, and no medical information, no records, no name, all the same things that you have suffered too in America. So what we have done in Australia, they’re quite ahead of the time, and they did. The Prime Minister did an apology. And it was so powerful.
Julie: I read that it was so powerful.
Zara Phillips: It’s on YouTube; you can actually see the video.
Julie: Oh, I have not seen the video. I’m going to look it up now. It’s so powerful.
Zara Phillips: So powerful. And there were mothers and their children and, you know, adoptees, everybody’s kind of weeping.
And so it’s begun to happen a little bit here, like in Ireland, they are acknowledging what happened to these mothers in the mother and baby homes, how they’re finding babies, bodies, 800 babies were just found buried. I mean, horrific. These mothers weren’t even told if their babies that they died.
So you know, there’s all this stuff now being uncovered. And in England, there were between two and 300 mother and baby homes, and probably a ton in America.
Julie: A ton.
Breaking the Silence: Why Zara Is Taking Her Story to Parliament
Zara Phillips: But you know, the focus… and I was… My mother was putting a mother and baby home.
So my plan is, and it was just an idea because there’s the rebel in me that still likes to get out there. Now that I have a voice.
It’s weird when I think I had a voice when I was younger.
But it was the wrong voice. You know, it was the angry yelling in class and being disruptive. You know, I was one of those kids. Getting attention, but not for the right reasons, as such.
And now that I have found my voice, and I don’t feel I need to people please anymore, adopted family and birth family. I can be more authentic about how this has impacted me and how it’s impacted other people. And it’s time for us to start sharing how we feel about what happened to us.
So we’re all going to Parliament, I have no idea what’s going to happen. I have no idea.
Julie: I’m so excited about your bravery and your voice.
Zara Phillips: Yeah. And things are happening, the media are picking up on it. And we’re going to have our banners.
And I just think, just as a group of adoptees and birth mothers together, just to hold up a banner and say this is how I feel, it’s going to be very healing in itself. I think it’s, it’s going to be very bad. People are very excited.
So I don’t know, I cannot tell you, I you know, you have to talk to me.
Julie: In a few days, in a few days, I would love to do that. And I’m like, energetically sending you so much love and support because it’s, it’s powerful.
The Deep Codes: Why Trauma Responses Persist Even After Decades
Julie: You know, I think I think when a lot of things get hidden or misunderstood, or things aren’t spoken, that is what fuels addiction. That is what fuels hyperfixation. That’s what fuels suffering.
When it’s all unconscious, or just automatic. Lives get disrupted. Relationships are ruined. I mean, it really wreaks havoc on a system.
Zara Phillips: Absolutely. When you know these, some of the adoptees and a friend of mine, they’re so worried, I can’t be seen by the media, because, you know, what would, what will happen, my family will be upset. I mean, that’s what people don’t understand: how we’ve had to live with this sort of, you know, in between all these families, and because other people have feelings around our story, we’ve not been able to be authentic.
And I have to say, you know, a few months ago, I was on the news here because the BBC was doing a piece. And we made the six o’clock news, which is a big deal in England, because it’s a lot of views. And I have to tell you, I bawled my eyes out that day, I was sobbing.
And I’m thinking, Why am I crying? This is like great. And I thought it is because when I was a child, I was not allowed to talk about this. And my adopted mother, because of her fear and her wound, she didn’t want people to know I was adopted.
She didn’t want to talk about infertility, you know, it’s so complicated. And you know, she passed away a long time ago. So I don’t have to worry about that anymore.
But I still had that feeling of, oh, my God, she would be so upset with me. I’m, I’m on the BBC news with something I was not supposed to be talking about. How would she feel about that? So it still affects your adult life.
Julie: Right?
Zara Phillips: Yeah.
Julie: And I feel that I live that. And I’ve studied it.
Right. And those codes, those deeper codes, they run deep, you already told me with your words, logically, you know, that you’re really free in every logical way. And you do this work to help people find their authentic self.
And yeah, there it is. It’s a survival code.
Zara Phillips: What I’m saying is, it still came up, and my mother’s dead.
And I’m still like, what would my mother think? And then I, you know, I’m like, she’s rolling in her grave. And I thought, you know what, she’s probably very proud, actually, that I finally have been able to talk about it in an honest way. But yeah, it’s it is deep.
And it does block us. And I think the word, tell me the word again, hyper…
Julie: Hyperfixation.
Zara Phillips: It’s because of all of this, you know, obsessive thinking. I mean, I’m in recovery from drugs and alcohol.
I’ve been sober since I was 22. Thank God.
Julie: That’s amazing Zara.
Zara Phillips: But before I ever picked up a drug or a drink, I was hyperfixating. That’s what I realized. It’s obsessive thinking.
The same… they call it overthinking as well. You know, same thought going Oh, what if this? What is that? Oh, my God, this, this, this. And it it can make you feel crazy.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And think about the power of that deep, deep, deep code.
You’ve worked on it. You’ve been sober. You’ve been in recovery for a long time for for through over three decades, right? And, yet, in this moment of this really important interview on BBC, it still had whispers from the past.
I mean, right, you’ve worked on this in a massive way. But it’s primal, right? It’s primal in there. And so this is the kind of power that I think when we tell our stories, and we make it more visible, it gives people permission to do the same, and even untangling some of these complicated topics like you are right now. On this podcast, as well as in your advocacy work this week, it’s powerful.
It starts to open a door for people. So I really appreciate the life that you’re living that gives people permission to do the same. It means a lot to me personally, as well as professionally.
Zara Phillips: Yeah, you never know where these things are going to go. You know, I always think we do stuff like you do your work, your passion, and almost maybe because we, you know, we want to understand ourselves more. And then you just bring in more and more, you know, adoptees just come to you or they write to me and, and it’s just wonderful.
All of that. And it really is wonderful.
Julie: It is wonderful.
And I feel like I’m always learning and growing. And I love being a voice that gives people opportunities to do the same in lots of different ways.
And that really is part of the heart behind this podcast, Whole by Design is helping people connect with the tools and the resources that really help move the needle to moving into their most authentic experience, just to use some of your words around authenticity, which I love.
Zara Phillips: Not being afraid, you know, thinking, I mean, already I’ve had adoptees saying, Oh, I really want, you know, I really want to come to the protest, but I can’t be interviewed by anyone. And I mustn’t be seen because if somebody gets a glimpse of me, you know, and I, I have to remind myself of how I used to live like that all the time. So I try to be, you know, gentle with them.
And I said to them, don’t don’t not come because of your fear around that, because actually nothing may happen anyway. They may not get seen, and they don’t have to speak in the interview. But it’s, it’s like giving yourself permission to just be with people that get your experience, and letting everybody you know, we’re not responsible for what other people think about us.
It’s hard.
Julie: It’s hard. But I see that posture in you as an observer and listening to what you’re saying, as your heart’s desire to have them get a taste of the freedom that you’ve moved into by shedding some of those old protective mechanisms that we all come by honestly, right?
You have compassion for it.
And you’re also at the same time holding the cellular knowledge of your path and how different that can be, right? Because it’s all an illusion. It’s like a mirage. It’s like an old shadow that can move so quickly.
Zara Phillips: And you know, it is, I am in a different position because my mother, who was controlling, you know, really emotionally, I felt very controlled in a sense or allowed myself to be. And I worried so much of what you know, again, I think it’s that rejection, you know, I’m going to be rejected or something. And my mom probably wasn’t even aware of what she was doing.
But I did it that way. You know, and the truth is, since she passed away, there is a freedom, you know, there just is. And I hate to say that, but I hope that adoptive parents can understand that, that, you know, if their child is out there, you know, a young adult is out there needing to express themselves about how they feel about being adopted.
It’s not because they don’t love you. Right? Because we need to, we need to explore that part of ourselves. And actually, you know, I think adoptive parents are scared of their child rejecting them and running off with the birth parent.
But we’re also scared of them rejecting us. So we’re all actually feeling the same.
Julie: Right? That’s so important.
That’s really powerful. And a great common space to maybe build more compassion for the other part of the adoption constellation, right?
It’s it is complicated. I think that’s a great way to even phrase it.
It’s very complicated. But I love what you’re out. Go ahead.
Zara Phillips: I’m saying layers, you know, everybody’s layers. Yeah, there are a lot of different layers.
The Two Non-Negotiables: Radical Honesty and True Community
Julie: So when it comes to, you know, these, I’m gonna, I’m gonna shift gears, because I could talk to you all day.
But when it comes to these two components that you really see as key to living into authenticity, and really experiencing lasting recovery from any type of obsessive thinking, hyperfixation, addiction, tell me a little bit more about what you see as those two key elements.
Zara Phillips: Well, I can tell you for me as an addict, and who has been able to maintain sobriety, not, you know, I’ve never picked up a drug or a drink, but my goodness, I have been a bit, you know, I’ve been a basket case, and I have not always behaved appropriately over the years. I had to learn to be really honest, no matter what I was going through.
Because the thing is, for an addict, they say you’re only as sick as your secrets. And if I start hiding, oh, I’ve had this thought, or I maybe I don’t want to live anymore. Or maybe my depression is bad.
Or maybe I want to run off with some man, or you know, whatever it is, or shop, or all the things, as we know that there are so many addictions. I have had to learn to humble myself and always let somebody know, but I’ve created a good community of safe people where I will phone them and say, you know, I have 30 years of recovery. And I’ve been thinking about doing this destructive thing, which will still come up for me, I’m not ever going to tell anybody that it doesn’t.
And that alleviates it. I’m able to work through it, I’m able to look at why am I suddenly feeling again, like I want to annihilate myself in some different way, what’s actually going on. And, you know, just talking through with somebody else will stop me then doing destructive behavior.
And for me, that is the key. And I’ve heard it, you know, I go to 12-step program, I’ve heard it with adoptees talking at groups, we have to find a place where it’s safe to really tell people, I think, especially for us, because we weren’t allowed to. You know, I couldn’t say, I’m in grief, mom, I miss my birth mother, I’m depressed all the time, I have anxiety.
And, you know, it’s like, but you aren’t you lucky, look, you know, all the things that are said to us. And if I were to admit, I don’t feel lucky, I don’t feel grateful, what was going to happen to me as a child, so we lie. So I’ve really found and even, you know, at my age, my age, my old age, stuff still comes up where I feel stress, and I might go into an old behavior, but it doesn’t last so long.
But I still have to use the same tools. And another thing I would say is a community. Because you were talking about Gabo Mate, and he always says, addiction is isolation.
And how we get out of addiction is community. It’s not isolating anymore. So for me, it’s still, you know, life is whether you’ve got trauma or not, whether you’re adopted or not. Life is pretty intense right now in the world.
You know, and a lot of people want to escape in various ways, because it’s a lot with the news, and oh my goodness, it’s talk about fixation. You know, it’s endless. So I in a way, sometimes I feel like I need those tools more than ever, just to maintain some peace.
From Survival to Authenticity: Your Roadmap to Breaking Free
Julie: Yes. And isn’t that peace so important?
Okay, so the two main arenas where you see real healing happening, and it sounds like a consistent commitment to them is one finding at least one person, if not many people, that you can humbly be your authentic self, honestly showing up around what’s going on for you.
And the second is being part of a community that supports you, that you connect with, and that you feel a part of and and how powerful that is as an antidote to really struggling in isolation.
I love it.
Julie: Zara, thank you so much for being a light on this planet and for helping with your humble sharing in a very sometimes very public places, whether it’s your books or your films, or your courtship with the news, or public advocacy. I really appreciate you for being that person for all of us who have been relinquished, and for others who can relate to it.
It’s not just adoptees and those in foster care who can relate to that feeling of being abandoned that comes in all kinds of shapes and forms.
And I would say sometimes it’s people who on the outside, everything looks great, but their parents just weren’t available either because they were working multiple jobs and didn’t have the capacity to really be present or because they’re high performing and they were committed and gone and they were kind of passed off to nannies and babysitters and things like that, that feeling of neglect can cause and fuel the same type of hyperfixation slash addiction slash behaviors that really interrupt the ability to live a fulfilling, peaceful and authentic life. So I appreciate you.
I’m wishing you well on your protest. I hope it gets lots of coverage. And more importantly, I hope it gets just one more apology on the globe because they’re well overdue.
And I appreciate what you’re doing to make that.
Zara Phillips: Thank you so much.
Julie: Thank you for joining me on this episode of Whole by Design.
I hope it left you feeling inspired to toss out the labels, embrace new perspectives, and take one step closer to the joy and clarity you deserve.
As always, visit www.vivapartnership.com to access our free and low-cost resources that will empower you and your loved ones on health and healing.
Let’s spread the message, subscribe, review, or share this episode with someone who could benefit from a stigma-dropping approach to mental fitness today.
